Sunday, January 10, 2010

Nobody likes reading self-righteous preachy posts, but ...

“This ain’t no team! Ya’ll are bunch of individuals. All ya’ll!”
--Coach Benton (Jong's high school linebackers coach)

I hesitated writing a response to Tanks and Healers Should Get The Biggest Rewards, because I thought it was either an obvious sarcastic post or an attention-drawing troll post.

Now I’m convinced that the author really believes the stuff he wrote.

To the extent he didn’t vomit all over the monitor after reading "they’re just meat in the room", I have serious doubts whether Matticus has a firm grasp on the concept of teamwork.

Raiding: It’s a Team Sport. You're damn right it is.

Anyone can provide a textbook definition of team, but not everyone actually understands the power and fragility of a team.

Do you know why so many so-called “progression raiding guilds” can’t progress even with all their time, gears, and skill?

It’s because those guilds have at least one Prima Donna who believes his role/efforts/time is more significant than those of others.

All it takes is ONE. All it takes is one guy to blurt out stupid shit like “[I am] the heart and soul of the group” to hose the entire raid’s vibe. He doesn’t even have to say it. All he has to do is think it and the raid is done—it’s no longer a team; it's a bunch of individuals.

A bunch of individuals will wipe on Dalaran Squirrel. Barney (that's what I named him) will shellac them with pride-obliterating bitch slaps.

Gears will drop. Skill cap is readily obtainable for the willing and the initiated. However, understanding and demonstrating appreciation for teamwork is a daunting task that many fail to complete within their life time.

"Thanks for everyone's comments... let’s not make a mountain out of a mole hill!"

By asking the readers whether we agreed or disagreed, Matticus implied there's a room for discussion on the topic.

Think of it this way: If Spitfire submitted that article as a part of his application to your guild, would you consider his candidacy seriously?

You know what my Warrior Tank GM would have done? He would have made the biggest fucking mountain out of molehill so he can crush his nuts with the mountain then give him a ginvite so he can gkick him on the spot.


Tam said...


I mean, I'm *a healer* and I don't think I should get more rewards than anyone else. I saw that post, boggled and moved on.

Ultimately you choose your role - I believe the point at which you're seriously considering the idea that you do more, or are worth more, than other people ... I think that's called "burn out."

Xanthippe said...

Tanks and healers DO get 'bigger' rewards. Even ignoring the fact that our lfd queue times are much shorter, good tanks and healers are prized because their roles can help mitigate the mistakes of others. Want to finish channeling you Arcane Missiles before moving out of Deathwhisper's green patch o' death? It's fine, I have healing to spare. Guilds know this.

The real issue with the post is that no tank or healer should want to get 'bigger' rewards. I want the sky to rain gold, epics and cute mini-pets on my dps. And it's not because of Jong's football inspired teamwork nonsense. Call me Gevlon (or not, ew), but it's in my best interest that my dps be as blinged out as possible. I want the extra ticks of that arcane missiles to mean something.

Gevlon said...

I think you mistake two similar roles:
a) DPS in a raid: doing the serious job of downing the boss before enrage while decreasing healing load by not standing in avoidable damage AND interrupting, kiting adds
b) DPS in a 5-man group: useless meat doing less damage than the tank, sometimes less than the healer, while bitching on every perceived mistake the tank and healer do, despite the mistake is usually theirs.

Obviously the first should get same reward as tanks and healers. The second should be doomed to spam /trade eternally for "LF2M tank and healer daily HC lol XD".

Since Blizzard doesn't want the paying idiots suffer, they did several actions to ensure thier stay, including introducing the "boost some morons for 2 emblems" aka "sanity tap" feature.

Since they are here to stay, the "DPS" is now the mixture of (a) and (b), and you can agree, that the mixture deserves less than tanks and healers. It's unfair to (a), but life is never fair.

However I would also support something like: extra 1 emblem for being tank, healer, or #1 DPS in the group.

Fricassee said...


In the same effort, good DPS can mitigate the mistakes of healers and tanks. Are you a poor raid healer? NP, I'll get out of that D&D quickly and not stress you, but since my DPS is so good, you still won't get an extra wave of adds.


If Spitfire's post was about how under-performers in heroics would get less loot, I would fully agree with that comment. But no one cares about loot in heroics.

And for those who care, it's way easier to turn my brain off as a tank than as a DPS. As a tank on farm content, I can pay less attention to survival. As a DPS on farm content, I can't half-ass my job or I'll get kicked for it.

Supernose said...

You know, like I posted on that thread, at first I agreed with him. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that playing this game, the way you want to, is its own reward. That's all I need, purple pixels be damned.

-Sady of Flash of Sadysm

Pilfkin said...

I like being heals. I've tried the dps thing, firstly on a shadow priest then on a lock and I can't do it. I have a healer mentality, healer guilt, call it what you like but when I have no control over dropping health bars I panic and I'm not having fun anymore. I don't want 'additional' reward because I choose to play the class I enjoy!!

I recall having a chat with my guild leader when everyone was waiting for dual specs and his view that this would make *everything* much easier as now additional people would off-spec to tank or healer. My argument then was as it is now, tank/healer are different roles to dps and if people wanted to play that role they'd be doing so already. I then spent weeks in Naxx with guildies 'trying out' tank or healer roles and deciding that they didn't like it (whodathunkit).

Surely the special snowflake mentality is *so* over? Admittedly I'm only just back after a few months break (and an enraged deletion of characters that I'm not willing to get restored cos I'm a stubborn mare) but I'm happily healing in LFG in the 40s without asking for more than a bit of courtesy and manners...and to be honest, that would be additional reward in itself in some groups!

Rhidach said...

Forget an extra badge, can I just get some gold? Eh? No? Damn.

It'd be dumb to reward tanks/heals extra. I enjoy playing a tank, I don't do it for the instant queues, or the control, or the women (... yeah.), I do it because I enjoy it.

I'd prefer brain dead people not queue as tank or heals for extra badges, thank you very much.

Karial said...

Ok but honestly? That squirrel shouldn't be messed with. He may look cute and cuddly, but he's like that bunny in monty python. Sharp pointy teeth and all...

Although it would be cool to be rewarded for wandering through heroics getting extra badges just because I have the ability to Wild Growth in case someone takes damage (it's a heroic, they won't), like everyone said, I chose/enjoy healing. And being able to queue almost instantly is pretty nice.

Ophelie said...

I have to second what Rhidach said. I tank and heal because I enjoy tanking and healing. Getting to tank or heal *is* my reward. And I sure don't want people deciding to tank or heal just for extra badges or loot.

Joe said...

Yeah I haven't yet had a non-tank or healer dropped into my heroics "to get in faster", but I'm sure that would happen if tank/heal loot was increased in some way.

As far as raids, too many of our guild's progression issues can be traced directly to dps coordination and output issues. Our healers have good output and follow direction well and our tanks are good and quick to pick up the pieces. Meanwhile we had issues with add overload in Thorim's arena, add overload in ph1 Deathwhisper, and melee from Blood Beasts.

I don't however think we have much, if any, "me! me! me!" in the raid. Unless you're talking about the "I deserve a spot, no matter my performance" kind of attitude.

Olga said...

With raid-geared dps in a current heroic group, i, as healer, can place earthshield up, healing totem down, and go afk. Tank can do the same, as if he can't keep aggro - he don't need to do it for those 5 seconds till whole pack will hit the floor, or 30 seconds till boss will. Cooldowns will let dps tank if he aggroed, or drop aggro, so mobs will run to 7k dps arcane mage, and will die nowhere close to him.
My friend goes heroics on his kitty, despite he can switch to full geared bear - just for the reason that staying in kitty he alone can make every run smooth and fast, regardless of other ppl in group, while as bear he can only have runs with just the same result that take twice as longer time.

gnomeaggedon said...

What, someone is offering me more?

Hell, I obviously deserve it... where do I sign up?

Meeh.. in a months time we will have to pay the Tanks & Healers to do the randoms.. all the raid tanks and healers will have stuffed their bags full of Frost emblems, so we will need to encourage a few DPS to reroll...

Maybe I'll just go play Gnomeaggedon until then...

As Olga says, Earth Shield, Riptide, bio, beer run, movie, Earth shield, riptide...

The only joy is watching the aggro whores sweat...

Don't I deserve a little something for that?

Anonymous said...

Yes, I agree the tanks and healers should be further rewarded for their efforts.

A motorcycle to show everyone how cool and important tanks are feel about right.

A oozeling - is there anything uglier than a oozeling? - to show how much healers care also feels right. Hmm, maybe a pet giraffe instead, I love giraffes!

On a more serious notes,
1. running heroics when overgeared is boring in my opionion
2. there are only a few usuful items you can buy with the emblems
3. the is a shortage of tanks and, to a lesser extent, of healers

Rewarding the tanks and healers with extra emblems would likely cause them to stop running heroics at an earlier date than they would otherwise.

Not directly related to topic, but it not uncommon on Suramar to hear players offering gold to a tank to start a group for a random.

Hugmenot (prot warrior) of Suramar
Carealot (holy priest) of Suramar

mike said...

I think being able to find a group 10x faster than a DPS is reward itself, honestly.

Arkaneena said...

I gotta agree with Pilfkin and Rhidach here. I play a paladin, I was a healer first. I love healing. I considered tanking a punishment when my old guild made me dual spec for it. It takes practice to get good at it. And it takes enjoying it. Being called a failure, because I am still learning a new role isn't fun. However my new guild I had more practice, and am now happily main-tanking for them with some crazy success.
I am leveling my shaman next, because I am a healer at heart. I can tell you she is elemental and caster dps in dungeons... I am not so good. I see those life bars go down and I just cast the chain heal. I don't jump to chain lightning. I jump on chain heal. I am thinking about just dungeoning my way from 70-80 on her just to do my preferred role.

DPS is not extra meat in a 5 man. Those that do it and do it well great. I am all for it, but I play a game to have fun, and dps is kinda meh. I know right what a silly concept.

We Fly Spitfires said...

""Thanks for everyone's comments... let’s not make a mountain out of a mole hill!"

By asking the readers whether we agreed or disagreed, Matticus implied there's a room for discussion on the topic."

Of course there's room for discussion on the topic :) It's why it's a blog post with a comments section :)

Ironically, although there have been some great responses, some of the feedback has been far more inflammatory than the original post :)

Nice blog btw :)

Anonymous said...

Sorry but I don't buy into the whole "can't be a team without equality" sentiment of this post any more than I buy into communism in general.

Outside of WoW, give me three examples where teamwork depends on everyone in the team getting equality of reward. Does this happen in sports teams? Companies? The military? No.

So it isn't exactly self-evident that its required in WoW.

Rem said...

Teamwork has nothing to do with communism, but everything to do with acknowledging and appreciating that everyone on the team plays a crucial role in its success.

Sports history is full of individually talented athletes who fail to reach any remarkable success, because they're so enamoured with their own talent and forget about the rest of the team. Even Michael "Effin'-Air" Jordan won nothing but scorer titles until he realised that he needs to throw the ball to the others occasionally. Funnily, he then went on to win even more scorer titles, along with championships.

Yes, the superstar on a sports team gets paid more. But it's not about payment anyway. In WoW, everyone is paid the same (-15$/month). In-game rewards are not payment, they are trophies and tokens of appreciation. The superstars are more popular with the masses? Well yes, so are the tanks and healers, naturally. You get "nice heals", or "nice tanking" sometimes - when was the last time you heard someone say "nice DPS"?

The military is an even worse comparison, since it lives, breathes and exists on the fundamental idea of the sacrifice of individual interest for a greater whole. Not everyone is equal, but the general who disregards the role of the grunt rarely lives to write his memoires.

It's not about equality - it's about respect. Teams thrive on respect, because without respect there can be no trust, and without trust there is no team. Gordon's post is a big, steaming pile of disrespect - for members of his team(s), no less! That makes it unacceptable in every way imaginable.

Jong said...

@the last anonymous

Let's say we're in the same guild.

If you tell me that you are worth more than I am because you are equivalent to CEO/General/Tom Brady, I'm gonna think you're an idiot. You're gonna think I'm a communist for thinking you're an idiot.

We have no respect for each other, which means we make a GREAT TEAM!

Wiggin said...

I've seen Gevlon trolling (ok, not trolling, lets say patrolling) all of the blogs that have been discussing this topic, and I just don't see where he gets all these bad DPS he speaks of.

As a tank, I can say I haven't run a random heroic yet where a DPS did less damage than the healer or myself. Perhaps as a warrior-tank, im a lower bar, my DPS in heroics is usually around 1.5k, peeking at maybe 2k.

But lets just say I got lucky groups, or a lucky server, or whatever to assume there are tons of bad DPS out there (for Gevlon's argument's sake), are there not already means of preventing that poor players (notice its the player, not the role, that makes a difference) don't get rewarded for poor play?

Premades can kick, randrom groups can vote kick, and players can out right refuse to play with them by dropping group, hearthing or (for example) refusing to heal.

On top of all those options, we STILL want to reward tanks and healers with more? Avoiding "bad" players isn't enough, we have to reward those that don't play a high "bad player" percentage class?

On top of that, Gevlon is only going to bitch more when he gets stuck with that fail tank/healer that gets more rewards than he on his DPS, which ultimately is an example of is his highly criticized ape subroutine posts.

It seems to me players want to take away from others, after the fact (the finishing of the instance) rather than remedy the situation from the beginning.

People argue whether the three roles have "equal effort" or "equal difficulty," there may not always be equality, but that is the fault of design and overgearing for an instance more than anything.

There are other ways to promote healing and tanking roles. Lowering the cost of Dual Spec, putting load screen tips that read: Try playing a different role in group today!

Or more specifically, designing encounters that require more action from DPS classes. Maybe *GASP* classes could once again be forced to use their CC abilities!? I remember watching as hunters had to place traps in specific locations to trap mobs, and use macros, placement and strategy to keep them trapped. Or mages that had to keep mobs sheeped, or change sheep targets depending on the situation. But no, we would rather cleave through easy content over and over again bitching all the way...

Ultimately the solution isn't through monetary rewards such as gold and badges but through design changes.